Flamingbaby

I was looking up information about Batman and the Joker, so I could have a better appreciation for the upcoming Batman movie. Batman is my favorite superhero, but I actually don't know a lot about the backstories of Batman or the Joker. But, I came across these Top Ten lists that I thought were pretty interesting, so I thought I would share them.
Top 10 Comic Book Characters
Top 10 Super Villains Of All Time
Top 10 Comic Book Archenemies

And, of course, I have to put up the article about my favorite superhero: Batman

FTA:One would say that this is the reason he has been able to beat Superman, using his mind instead of his brawn to outwit the Man of Steel into his traps.I think that is my favorite part of the article.

Hmmmm, interesting - I've collected comic books for the longest. However, over the past few years I have kind of stopped for the most part. Too expensive (almost $3-4 cover) and many times than not the stories are not as intense as they used to be. All the same, if you are intersted in getting some random Batman information from storylines, try the following;

Batman: The Cult (from the late 80's/early 90's - a random storyline, but very dark and bizzare)
Batman: Son of the Demon (Bruce Wayne has a son out there somewhere)
Batman: The Killing Joke (this has the Joker in it)

Honestly, I am not a big Batman fan and these are the stories that have stood out to me over the years (I am sure I am missing out on some other great stories). I'm more of a Wolverine fan and X-Men in general. Another suggestion is to go down to a local comic book shop and look in the $1 bins for old Detective Comics or Batman issues .

Oh well, I hope the information is helpful. The best villian in the Batman series is the Joker, they have this weird "love/hate" relationship - their line between hero and villian is grey.

I actually have not read those story lines...but it doesn't help that I don't collect comics. I love Batman, but I almost always have to hear his story line second hand. I never made the financial commitment to seriously collect comics. I have a few here and there that I've picked up...like the Star Trek/X-Men crossover! I still haven't read the Dark Knight Returns, and I've heard that is one of the best comics ever.

Batman has always been my favorite superhero though. I've always liked the idea that he is just a normal guy with brains, gadgets, and determination.

I think WAY too much is made of Batman beating Supes in the Dark Knight Returns storyline. It's essentially an "elseworlds" story (ie NOT Cannon) written by a guy that hates Superman. I hate articles that routinely use that story as proof that Batman could beat Superman.

Some of these writers seem to think that Superman is some bumbling farmboy retard that can't help but stumble into Batman's many traps. Supes is just as smart as Batman (he engineered and programmed several robotic clones of himself to defend the fortress of solitude), he's just not as good of a detective.

Batman MIGHT be able to take Superman given a lengthly planning period and some Kryptonite (which is why Superman entrusted Bats to hang on to Luthors ring, to take him down if he ever went "bad", but even then I only give him maybe a 10% chance of success. If you look at pretty much 90% of the JLA storylines that involve Superman getting possessed by something that results in him being evil, he takes apart the rest of the JLA in about 6 seconds.

Conclusion: Superman >>>>> Batman.

P.S. I thought Rhyno had read "The Killing Joke" that's the storyline where Robin II (Jason Todd) dies.

Bauh4us wrote:P.S. I thought Rhyno had read "The Killing Joke" that's the storyline where Robin II (Jason Todd) dies.Negative. I've heard about it, but I've never actually gotten to read it myself. I think it was either you or Nem$$ who told me about that storyline. Either that or someone told me when I went to the comic shop. I really should start collecting the comic books. I still don't like that there are like four different Batman's. Plus, if I would want to get the crossover story lines, I would have to get JLA and probably Supes. Maybe someday I'll break down and start collecting. By the way Bauh4us, if you still don't have those comics in order by the time I get back from Japan, my offer still stands to give you a hand. I give Supes a hard time, but he is still a good superhero. Because of Smallville, he has kind of grown on me...even though I know Smallville isn't really canon.

I can't help it that one of the best comics in the history of comics involving Supes and Batman has Batman beating Superman. At least I have been constantly told that the Dark Knight Returns is among the greatest.

There is really only 1 Batman, but I guess if you include the comics that are a part of the "animated series" universe, Batman Beyond, and the elseworlds stories like Gotham by Gaslight there are many more than 4. But in the cannon universe there is only Bruce Wayne (well, right now there are 52 different universes and most of them have a version of Batman, but holy crap is that mess to complicated to explain here).

I find it slightly amusing that one of the only comics you own (Dark Knight Returns) portrays Reagan as a super evil big brother type

I actually don't own Dark Knight Returns. I do want to read it. I've only heard the story line from Nem$$. I will have to pick it up at some point. I've only heard good about it. However, if it portrays Reagan as evil, that's strike one.

I'll probably try to start collecting Batman comics when I get back to the states. I thought there was only one universe. Isn't that what Infinite Crisis was supposed to fix?

Bauh4us wrote:
I find it slightly amusing that one of the only comics you own (Dark Knight Returns) portrays Reagan as a super evil big brother type

Where did you get the idea it shows Reagan as evil? You're gonna need to back that one up, man... I think you're getting your comics confused. Probably thinking of the sequel, in which the evil president is Lex Luthor, not Reagan.

Reagan's total involvement in the story:

(you should stop reading this right now if you don't want any spoilers)

1) Typical cold-war posturing vs. the soviet union, in the same style as the cuban missile crisis

2) Calls on superman to tell batman to cut out all this civil unrest shit, and specifically says he doesn't want it to escalate

3) When the soviets launch a nuke he does not retaliate, but rather trusts supes to handle it

4) Sends in superman to bring bats down only after witnesses report he murdered someone

I have to read this story myself! I have been doing a bit of research on the Dark Knight Returns. Although the story itself is not canon, the Batman in this story highly influenced the portrayal of the Batman in the canon DC universe. Because of Miller's portrayal, Batman was returned to his roots as a tough and controversial figure who employs dubious methods of justice. The canon Batman returned to a more dark and brooding version of the character. This information I kind of already knew. I think Nem$$ and I talked about this when he was giving me the breakdown of how my favorite superhero defeated Supes.

What I did not know was that this comic was responsible for the strained relationship between Supes and Batman in the canon universe. I always assumed that their relationship was always a bit strained. I really didn't know that Superman's and Batman's relationship had always been depicted as that of close friends and allies - the "World's Finest" is the quote that many use. I am already familiar with their current relationship of grudging respect and uneasy friendship, with underlying tension due to their vast differences. I like Miller's explanation that the reason why Batman and Superman cannot be best friends is due largely in part to the fact that Superman views Order as Natural state while Batman views Disorder as the Natural state.

Even many Superman fans aren't as convinced as you are Bauh4us that Supes could so definitely take Batman. There are many scenarios that have been proposed where Batman could take Superman. The obvious is with the use of kryptonite. Many suggest that missiles developed by Wayne industries composed of lead concealing kryptonite would do the trick. This I did not know, but evidently Wayne industries (and thus Batman) has already developed heat absorption armor and devices that can absorb/redirect Superman's heat vision. Superman is also vulnerable to tones too high for a normal human to hear but would be annoying or even painful for Supes. Because I don't read comics, another thing I did not know about are diseases that affect Kryptonians. With the unlimited resources of Wayne Industries, all Batman would require is time.

Edit: I am reading many different points of view, and here are some more reasons why Batman fans believe he could win. Superman is smart, but along with being very intelligent, Batman is also very clever. This is seen in their fighting styles (I've had to take the word of fans on this one since I don't read comics myself). Superman has been described as a reactive fighter. He deals with with situations as they occur. Batman, on the other hand, has been described as proactive. He is normally at least two steps ahead of his opponent. In the worst scenarios each hero has faced, Batman has left with a broken back while Supes has been killed. Superman would not do anything inherently wrong to win a fight. Although Batman would probably not do anything against his moral code to win, he has been described as more of an "end justifies the means" type of hero. Where Superman would follow his moral code precisely, Batman might bend his moral code for the greater good...or to win.

To put the above points into another scenario, if Batman and Superman were enemies, Batman would probably be better prepared to defeat Superman since he tends to account for every conceivable scenario. He could put Supes on the defensive with his proactive strategy. Plus, Batman does have kryptonite, and I don't think he would be afraid of using it. Kryptonite is a big weakness for Superman, but as many have pointed out, it is not his only weakness. If Batman were motivated enough, he might even discover a few more weaknesses.

How sweet this would be...

{youtube}wm0N3W-kdzQ{/youtube}

What kind of crack rock are you smoking Nem, you can't revise fictional history ? In the DKR universe the government is portrayed as a giant evil and facist organization which blackmails/brainwashes Superman to use as a sort of super weapon. They unleash Superman as a weapon on the Soviets when they invade a carribean island. They respond by launching a nuke which the gov then tells supes to stop. The nuke causes a giant EMP which wipes out power all over the country and causes a huge degree of civil unrest.

Superman is called in to stop Batman not because Bats is framed for Jokers murder, but because Gotham is the safest city in the country under his "illegal" care (The government has made all superheroes illegal, Superman is the only "legal" one because the government, headed by Reagan, controls him). This is a black mark to the government and so they send in Supes to "take out" Batman.

The whole point of the story is that Superman is some sort of government crony and purposefully blinds himself to the fact that the government has gone bad, while Batman seeks to render some sort of justice when no one else will. Reagan heads the government and is obviously portrayed as bad bordering on evil.

That being said, if Batman and Superman were enemies then Batman would either:

A: be in jail (Superman is still normal)
B: be dead (Superman is psycho)

Batman is very clever, he's about on the same level as Lex Luthor who has even more resources at his disposal than Waynetech and has so far managed to do exactly dick against the man of steel.

I'm also not sure where you get that Batman would bend his moral code, he's proven on many many many occasions that his scruples are just as strong as those of Superman (the recent Dr. Light fiasco with the JLA that precipitated the Identity Crisis comes to mind). Batman could definately plan for Superman, but that doesn't change the fact that he cannot stop him, only hope to slow him down (without Kryptonite). Batman has said this himself on many occasions. There is a reason why Superman trusts Bats with Kryptonite ring, because he thinks Bats would have the best CHANCE at beating him should he go bad, but I still wouldn't put that chance over 10%.

A Superman fan addressed the issue of Lex Luthor not being able to take down Superman. He described Luthor as having a "blinded by hate" genius that Wayne would not be handicapped by. I know even less about Lex than I do Batman and Superman, so I would just have to take your word on whether this is accurate.

In reading up on Batman, I read that after the death of Jason Todd, Batman takes a darker and often excessive approach to his crimefighting. He becomes less concerned with crimefighting "within the rules" and more concerned with serving justice and vengeance...although, he has always had the vengeance motivation since the reason he is a crimefighter is the murder of his parents.

After doing some research, I would have to say it would depend on the situation. If Batman would have time to prepare, I think he would have a pretty good shot at defeating Superman. Obviously, in a toe-to-toe cage match style fight with no opportunity to prepare, Superman would crush Batman.

There are many websites that lay out scenarios of how a battle would break down. If Superman were pursuing Batman, many people think that Batman would lure Superman through traps to tire him before the final confrontation. Batman would also try to insure that the final confrontation take place at night, underground, or any other situation where Supes could not be "recharged" by the sun. There are many details about how Batman could do this with high pitched sound devices, lead materials, and, obviously, kryptonite, but the details aren't as important as the strategy I think. With WayneTech at his disposal, I'm sure Batman could manufacture any device needed to pull of his strategy.

If Batman were pursuing Superman, many people believe the strategy would be to get Superman to come after Batman and follow the above strategy. Make Supes believe people are in danger - possibly even Lois - or that he is devising some other evil plan and lure Supes to him. The threat would not even have to be legitimate as long as Superman would feel compelled to investigate. That is another weakness of Superman that has been mentioned...his "boyscout" mentality.

Regardless, Superman would definitely be the favorite in the fight, but I would give Batman more than a 10% chance if he had time to prepare. I would probably give him 3 to 1 odds with Batman being the underdog.

Bauh4us wrote:
What kind of crack rock are you smoking Nem, you can't revise fictional history ? In the DKR universe the government is portrayed as a giant evil and fascist organization which blackmails/brainwashes Superman to use as a sort of super weapon. They unleash Superman as a weapon on the Soviets when they invade a Caribbean island. They respond by launching a nuke which the gov then tells supes to stop. The nuke causes a giant EMP which wipes out power all over the country and causes a huge degree of civil unrest.

Superman is called in to stop Batman not because Bats is framed for Jokers murder, but because Gotham is the safest city in the country under his "illegal" care (The government has made all superheroes illegal, Superman is the only "legal" one because the government, headed by Reagan, controls him). This is a black mark to the government and so they send in Supes to "take out" Batman.

The whole point of the story is that Superman is some sort of government crony and purposefully blinds himself to the fact that the government has gone bad, while Batman seeks to render some sort of justice when no one else will. Reagan heads the government and is obviously portrayed as bad bordering on evil.

Where are you getting this shit from? Again, I'm just talking about the first one... the second part was written years later and is clearly not up to the same level.

Superman isn't brainwashed or blackmailed, he's just doing the best he can to help in the same way he always has. Apparently at some point there was a crackdown on superheroes in general (they were illegally acting as vigilantes, after all) and as a result most have gone into retirement, Superman being a lone exception due to his agreeing to work directly for the government.

Yes, batman sees supes that way, but then batman has his own sort of blinders on the whole comic. He's become more extreme in his views and probably more than a little disconnected from reality... batman with a mid-life-crisis, trying to recapture his glory days while paying little attention to the people his actions are endangering (the new robin specifically), or the fact that no sooner does he come out of retirement than a couple of his old foes decide to get back into the game too. Just by being in Gotham again he insights civil unrest. When he is declared a public menace and charged with several crimes he resists arrest and fights with the cops.

So the government is fascist and evil because it opposes the soviet invasion of a country the US supports? What the hell are you smoking? In fact, Superman is the only one who goes in to oppose them (no troops endangered at all) but then nobody actually -tells- him to go in the first place... he hears about it on the news and charges in of his own accord. When he single-handedly pushes them back the soviets shoot off a nuke for spite. None of this is necessarily reagan's or the government's fault... it's just an alternate history, one in which Reagan's hard-line diplomacy doesn't make the soviets blink.

Gotham is not even close to a safe place in DKR. By braking up a huge gang Batman splinters the group, leading to a much -higher- crime rate. Some of them call themselves sons of the bat and begin acting as vigilantes, but not with his sense of restraint. They use guns, bombs, knives, whatever... often killing the perpetrators and in some cases harming the victims and blaming them for not standing up for themselves. Gotham is only declared the safest city in America after the nuke strike and the whole country is in a panic - civil war breaks out, rioting, starvation, massive crime upwelling - and only through declaring marshal law is batman able to keep Gotham safe, and even then only in comparison to the rest of the country.

Why Supes is sent in is left open to interpretation... Reagan never explains his motivations. In any case, Reagan was concerned before long before this 'safest city' thing happened, so even if you want to blame him it's unfair to say that's the whole reason. In fact the case could be made that the idea to bring down batman is superman's idea. He's the one who tells reagan bruce will never let himself be taken alive, and his throughts while dealing with the soviets center largely on him blaming batman for the current state of things.

Where are you getting this from? I know what DKR is. If you can't understand that Reagan is at the very least being lampooned and at the most portrayed as an evil facist I really don't know what to say. Have your political views and love for Reagan blinded you from seeing even when others are making fun of him?

Everything Superman does in DKR is the governments fault, with the exception of the wink he gives at the end when he realizes that Batman is not dead, he is completely controlled by the government to the point where he is doing halfway evil things himself (like destroy the rainforest). The fight with Bats helps break him of this which is why he gives the wink at the end.

The government doesn't go after Batman cause he's seen as a murderer, thats the excuse they use, they go after him cause he makes them look bad, which is an evil reason. The whole ending of the comic has Batman coming to terms with him changing his mission from going after the common criminal to going after the government who has become so afraid of itself that it is attacking him because he might wake up others to how crappy of a job it's doing.

Here's the dialouge where Reagan orders Superman to attack the Russians:PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: ...American tr-- excuse me . . . heroic American troops are now engaged in direct combat with Soviet forces . . Now, there's been a lot of loose talk these days about nuclear war . . .

[Superman is in the middle of a visit with Bruce Wayne, at the President's behest. Superman, with his super-hearing, now hears the President's broadcast.]

SUPERMAN: I have to leave. We'll talk later.

BRUCE WAYNE (BATMAN): No hurry.

PRESIDENT RONALD REAGAN: . . . Well, let me tell you nobody's running off half-cocked, no sir . . . But we sure as shootin' aren't running away either. We've got to secure our -- ahem -- stand up for the cause of freedom . . . and those cute little Corto Maltese people, they want us there, just you ask them . . . Meanwhile, don't you fret . . . we've got God on our side . . . or the next best thing, anyway . . . hehe . . .



Heroic is emphasized in the comic