An article about a man kicking his pregnant ex-girlfriend to abort a baby caused quite a debate between the FlamingBaby staff members.  The debate is informative, funny, and a little scary.  We'd like to know what you think, so post a comment and tell us who you think is right and wrong. 

 I've given each debater a label to help you keep track of who is saying what.  Here are the labels and their debaters general stance: 

 [Asshole]

I'm gonna come off as an asshole here, but why is this guy being charged with murder?  I thought that the whole point behind abortion was the fact that the law says that it's not a baby until it's born.  The most this guy should be charged with is assault.  I hate shit like this, you can't have it both ways.

[Curious]

8 months pregnant? Are third trimester abortions legal anywhere, for that very reason?

[Asshole]

3rd trimester abortions are legal everywhere, in 04 congress passed a ban but the Supreme Court ruled it unconstitutional because it did not provide a clause for a doctor to perform one in the event that the mothers life was in danger.  Congress responded by saying that there is never such a case (nice to know as well as being idiots who spend money on retarded pork barrel projects, every member of congress is also apparently an MD), but it has never been able to successfully argue this before the Supreme Court, end result you can still get them so they still make news (like when the Dakotas tried to ban them last year and were smacked down by the Supreme Court)

[Curious]

Hmm, didn't know that.  Yes, our representation is absolutely retarded most of the time.

[Vivid]

To me kicking a pregnant woman in the stomach who is a month away from having a baby is a lot different than having a doctor perform an abortion on the same women who requests it. I could easily kick the shit out of my own computer no problem, but if some asshole breaks into my house and destroys my shit, THEN it is vandalism and he'll get burned with that (not to mention breaking and entering)

 

Personally I think there should be some kind of law for if you force abortion on someone (I'm pro choice, but not pro make your choice for you). Adam has a point on how if abortion is legal, it isn't really murder, but there has to be some way to punish someone kicking a preggers bitch in the stomach. IMO, attempted murder + whatever for the baby = jail time anyway. A simple assault charge pussy slap on the wrist would not cut it at all

[Asshole]

I'm not arguing that it's not different, only that abortions are legal because we don't consider the fetus to be a person, but then if the fetus is killed (through assault or in like a car accident or something) then magically the fetus IS a person and your a murderer.

The guy is scum, but I hate the double standard we set with this, is the fetus alive or not?  Pick one and lets enforce it.

[Outlandish]

########The way it should be!##########

Who cares if it is alive? 

Up until the day that the mother gives birth, she should be allowed to abort it for whatever reason (including shits and giggles).

It should be illegal for ANYONE else to abort the fetus without the mother's consent.

###########The way it will be#############

Due to people having to LABEL the damn fetus to feel better about their judicial system, they'll label it as NOT ALIVE.

That way the mother can still abort it.

The "murderer" will not get punished for manslaughter, but should be able to be sued for damages in the lost joy/love/etc... that will be lost due to the baby not coming to fruition.

############ negating myself ########

I assume we 'label' it not alive because it is being supported by the mother.  It is not living on its own.  What about people like schiavo that are living off machines?  Couldn't we just go kill them?

[Reference]

From the article:

Two doctors testifed in court on Wednesday that the baby was 29 weeks into the pregnancy and would have survived if not for the trauma Price and Wright caused.

[Outlandish]

Right, I understand that.  But, going off what Asshole said, they can't say that it's alive and negate that at the same time for abortions. 

[Asshole]

I don't agree with your first argument.  Just because your supporting a living being does not mean you have the right to kill it (if you consider it alive).  By that logic you should be able to kill a baby too.  If you give birth to a baby and then do nothing the baby dies, it's on you to take care of it.

Personally I'm pro choice, not because I think there is nothing wrong with abortion (I do, because I do think it's alive), but because I hate government sticking it's nose into people's business.  Especially something as personal as a pregnancy.

As far as labeling goes, that's how laws work.  They basically have to be written as to be black and white so people know what they can and cannot do in the social contract.  Without labels we would be even more at the mercy of the rich than we are now.

While I understand the argument that it's different if it's mine I don't agree with it.  That only works on things you can own.  While the baby is "yours" it's not, it belongs to itself.  You may have responsibility for it but it's not yours (speaking in terms of ownership).  We as a society have already determined that human life is sacred, now we have to determine where it begins, in the womb or outside of it.

[Outlandish]

It doesn't belong to itself, when its only chance for survival is to become a parasite to its host (mother).  The host then has the right to remove the parasite, especially if it is becoming dangerous.

[Reference]

How to end any conversation about politics: "Last time I checked, this was America!" *walk away*

[Asshole]

By your definition it's still a parasite when it's 0-1.5 years old. It is COMPLETELY dependent upon others to survive.

[Outlandish]

I'll take care of my daughter when she gets home today.

[Asshole]

Do you mean "take care of" in the fatherly kind of way or in the mafia kind of way?  :P

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